BizBlend with Sana – Guest Appearance

Todd Hagopian Explores Bipolar Disorder as Hidden Business Edge on BizBlend Podcast

On November 28, 2025, transformation strategist Todd Hagopian joined host Sana on the BizBlend podcast for an episode titled “Can Bipolar Be Your Hidden Business Edge In Leadership And Turnarounds?” The conversation challenged conventional assumptions about what makes leaders effective, exploring how mental health conditions typically framed as disabilities can actually provide competitive advantage in specific business contexts. Hagopian brought credibility through both his track record of over two billion dollars in shareholder value creation and his personal experience managing bipolar disorder throughout his Fortune 500 career.

Table of Contents

What Is the BizBlend Podcast?

BizBlend is a daily live podcast hosted by Sana that features substantive conversations about business growth with industry leaders, entrepreneurs, and problem-solvers, operating under the Healthy Mind by Avik network. The podcast has rapidly established itself as a destination for entrepreneurs and professionals seeking content that addresses business success alongside personal wellbeing, allowing it to explore topics that purely business-focused shows often avoid.

Sana has built a reputation for exceptional interview preparation. Guests consistently praise her accurate introductions and thoughtful questions that focus on real challenges businesses face. This preparation produces conversations that deliver immediate practical value rather than superficial promotional content.

What distinguishes BizBlend within the crowded business podcast landscape is its emphasis on raw, honest conversations. Sana creates space for guests to share failures alongside successes, producing insights that polished success narratives cannot deliver.

The show covers diverse territory including business fundamentals, career advancement, and personal growth. Episodes have featured conscious leadership coaches, behavioral scientists, brand strategists, and operations experts. The daily live format keeps content current and allows real-time audience engagement across multiple platforms including YouTube.

Can Bipolar Disorder Be a Hidden Business Edge?

The November 28 episode directly addressed whether mental health conditions that society typically frames as disabilities can actually provide competitive advantage in specific business contexts, particularly corporate turnarounds. Todd Hagopian brought credibility to this question through his track record of over two billion dollars in shareholder value creation across Fortune 500 leadership roles combined with his personal experience managing bipolar disorder throughout his career.

“When medication altered his cognitive experience, Hagopian faced a choice between health and performance. His solution involved building external frameworks that could replicate his most effective patterns without requiring specific mental states to activate them.”

The conversation explored the specific characteristics of hypomanic states that can produce business advantage. Elevated energy, rapid ideation, pattern recognition, risk tolerance, and relentless drive all represent cognitive patterns that turnaround situations often require.

However, the discussion avoided simplistic celebration of these traits. Hagopian shared the corresponding challenges including managing energy fluctuations, maintaining consistency when internal states change, and building systems that function regardless of daily cognitive variations.

Sana guided the conversation toward practical application: How can leaders identify their own cognitive patterns? What systems help capture productive insights when they emerge? How should organizations think about neurodiversity in leadership selection?

This led to discussion of the HOT System, or Hypomanic Operational Turnaround methodology. The framework emerged from Hagopian’s effort to bottle the productive elements of hypomanic states into processes anyone can execute.

Who Is Todd Hagopian, the Stagnation Assassin?

Todd Hagopian is a business transformation authority known as the Stagnation Assassin who currently serves as VP of Product Strategy and Innovation at JBT Marel, leading the billion-dollar Diversified Food and Health division. His career spans leadership roles at Berkshire Hathaway, Illinois Tool Works, Whirlpool Corporation, and JBT Marel, where he has generated over two billion dollars in shareholder value through corporate transformations.

He transformed several businesses, including doubling EBITDA at three separate companies through systematic application of his turnaround frameworks.

“Hagopian founded the Stagnation Intelligence Agency to address what he terms Stagnation Syndrome, the organizational condition that traps businesses in declining performance spirals.”

Personal entrepreneurial experience complements corporate credentials. Hagopian founded Cash Flow Acquisitions during the pandemic, acquiring and operating multiple businesses. He doubled his manufacturing acquisition’s value in three years before successfully exiting.

His forthcoming book “The Unfair Advantage: Weaponizing the Hypomanic Toolbox” launches in January 2026 through Koehler Books. The book has already earned multiple awards including the Firebird Book Award and Literary Titan Book Award. Endorsements come from business leaders including Howard Behar, former President of Starbucks.

Hagopian maintains extensive media presence with over 100,000 social media followers and more than thirty Forbes features.

What Leadership Insights Did the Episode Reveal?

The BizBlend conversation revealed that cognitive diversity produces better organizational outcomes than homogeneous leadership teams, and that well-designed systems reduce dependence on optimal mental states regardless of whether leaders experience clinical mental health conditions. These insights apply across leadership contexts and challenge conventional approaches to talent selection and organizational design.

Different thinking patterns, including those associated with mental health conditions, contribute perspectives that conventional thinkers cannot generate. Organizations should consider neurodiversity strategically rather than merely as compliance requirement.

Systems reduce dependence on optimal mental states. Well-designed frameworks function regardless of daily energy fluctuations, mood variations, or motivation levels. This principle benefits all leaders, not only those managing mental health conditions.

Vulnerability about personal challenges has shifted from career liability toward competitive differentiation. Leaders who authentically share their experiences create connections and trust that polished executives cannot replicate.

Turnaround situations specifically benefit from cognitive patterns that routine operations might find disruptive. The intensity, risk tolerance, and unconventional thinking associated with certain mental health conditions align well with transformation requirements.

Where Can You Listen to the BizBlend Episode?

The BizBlend episode “Can Bipolar Be Your Hidden Business Edge In Leadership And Turnarounds?” featuring Todd Hagopian is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, and all major podcast platforms. The episode explores the relationship between mental health and leadership performance in corporate transformation contexts.

Listeners interested in connecting with host Sana or appearing as guests can reach the show through PodMatch. The BizBlend podcast releases daily episodes featuring conversations with entrepreneurs and business leaders.

Todd Hagopian’s transformation resources including the HOT System methodology, implementation guides, and masterclasses are available at toddhagopian.com. His book “The Unfair Advantage” is available for preorder ahead of its January 2026 release.

Frequently Asked Questions

What is the BizBlend podcast episode with Todd Hagopian about?

The episode titled “Can Bipolar Be Your Hidden Business Edge In Leadership And Turnarounds?” explores how bipolar disorder and other mental health conditions can provide competitive advantage in business leadership, particularly in corporate turnaround situations.

What is the HOT System?

The HOT System, which stands for Hypomanic Operational Turnaround, is a proprietary methodology developed by Todd Hagopian that captures the productive elements of hypomanic states into repeatable processes that anyone can execute, regardless of their mental state.

Who hosts the BizBlend podcast?

BizBlend is hosted by Sana, who conducts daily live shows featuring industry leaders, entrepreneurs, and problem-solvers. The podcast operates under the Healthy Mind by Avik network and is known for its exceptional interview preparation and raw, honest conversations.

What awards has Todd Hagopian’s book received?

“The Unfair Advantage: Weaponizing the Hypomanic Toolbox” has earned multiple awards including the Firebird Book Award and Literary Titan Book Award, with endorsements from business leaders including Howard Behar, former President of Starbucks.

When does Todd Hagopian’s book launch?

“The Unfair Advantage: Weaponizing the Hypomanic Toolbox” launches in January 2026 through Koehler Books and is currently available for preorder.

People Also Ask

Can bipolar disorder help in business leadership?

According to Todd Hagopian’s discussion on BizBlend, certain characteristics of hypomanic states can produce business advantage in specific contexts, particularly turnarounds. Elevated energy, rapid ideation, pattern recognition, risk tolerance, and relentless drive align well with transformation requirements, though these must be managed through systematic frameworks.

What is Stagnation Syndrome?

Stagnation Syndrome is a term coined by Todd Hagopian to describe the organizational condition that traps businesses in declining performance spirals. He founded the Stagnation Intelligence Agency to help leaders diagnose root causes rather than treating visible symptoms.

What is neurodiversity in leadership?

The BizBlend episode explored how cognitive diversity, including thinking patterns associated with mental health conditions, produces better organizational outcomes than homogeneous leadership teams. Organizations should consider neurodiversity strategically, matching cognitive profiles to role demands to unlock performance that uniform hiring criteria would exclude.

Podcast Transcript

Sana: Hey everyone, welcome back to BisBlend, the show where we talk about what actually happens behind the LinkedIn headlines. Listeners, today I want to start a little differently. Most of us are told that if we just work harder, push more, sleep less, we will eventually crack the code of success. But then life hits back. The promotion comes with panic attacks. The big deal closes. Then you are at the bar alone. The revenue graph goes up. Your mental health goes down.

Listeners, my guest today knows that tension in his bones. From the outside, he was the classic corporate rockstar. Youngest bank manager in Michigan, climbing the ladder at American Express, Whirlpool, Illinois Tool Works, managing hundreds of millions in revenue. On the inside, he was battling bipolar disorder, addiction, arrests, and a brutal morning routine of asking himself if he even wanted to be here.

At some point, he faced a choice that a lot of high performers secretly fear. Do I want to be healthy or do I want to be successful? Because it feels like I cannot have both. But instead of accepting the trade-off, he built a system. He calls it the HOT System — Hypomanic Operational Turnaround — a way to take the best parts of the hypomanic thinking, like insane focus and bold pattern recognition, and turn them into a repeatable business playbook without destroying yourself in the process.

Listeners, he used that operating system to generate hundreds of millions in value, turn around struggling businesses, and still show up as a sober husband and dad who actually sleeps at night. And his new book, The Unfair Advantage: Weaponizing the Hypomanic Toolbox, is now on pre-order on Amazon. We’ll definitely explore that in the conversation later. But listeners, it is a bipolar-inspired business manual in story form that asks a very spicy question: What if the thing you thought would end your career is actually the blueprint for your unfair advantage? So with that, listeners, meet my incredible guest Todd Hagopian. Todd, welcome to BisBlend. It’s really an honor to have you here with us.

Todd: Well, thank you so much for that great introduction. It was fantastic and it’s great to be here with you today. Thank you.

Sana: Thank you so much, Todd. It’s really an inspiration to host you today. So let’s begin with first exploring your story, your journey. There is this brutal moment where the meds start working, the symptoms calm down, and suddenly you feel like you have lost your edge. So if we strip away the brand language for a second, what did “I lost my edge” actually feel like day to day?

Todd: It was pretty crazy. First of all, I went about 15 years being undiagnosed. During that time period, I was going high in business and getting promoted, and every time something really good would happen, it would be followed up by something really bad. I just didn’t understand. It felt like it was just that play hard, work hard mentality — like those things are going to happen as you find success. Finally, as you get older, obviously that catches up to you. At about mid-30s, those down swings really hit me a lot harder. My body wasn’t handling not sleeping well. I was sleeping about 2 hours a night for 15 years. I finally started getting to where I was having headaches and chest pains and panic attacks and just couldn’t quite get it.

I finally went to the doctor and they threw everything at it — all kinds of tests — but finally they asked me if I had ever seen a psychiatrist. I thought that was a silly question, to go in there for headaches and chest pains and end up at a psychiatrist. But it was pretty clear pretty quickly. Multiple psychiatrists were saying, “Yes, the problem here is definitely bipolar. It’s in your brain, not your body.” So I went on these pills and it was amazing how fast they worked. Really quickly took away the highs and the lows.

Just to touch on bipolar for a minute — it’s not the crazy temper that everyone has in their head. It’s hypomanic highs where you have tons of energy, tons of focus, tons of drive, thinking outside the box, pattern recognition, all that stuff. And then followed by severe bipolar depression. That’s why they call it bipolar — because you’re going high to low, high to low, cycling back and forth.

All of that went away completely. The drugs basically mellowed me out completely. The good part about that is I felt better. The bad part is the hypomanic part that I had been known for — essentially my entire reputation was built on — evaporated almost overnight. It was noticeable. I was working differently. I wasn’t getting as much done. I wasn’t setting big goals. I wasn’t going out and finding new patterns and smashing orthodoxies. But people in my life were saying, “Hey, you’re much more present.” People who didn’t even know I was bipolar, who didn’t even know I was on medicine, were making comments that made it clear that I was calmer.

It was a very weird time in my life where everybody was saying things look good, but inside I was saying, “Oh my god, I just got this promotion and I can’t do it the way that they’re expecting me to.” That was when I had to make that choice. What I ended up deciding to do was try to mimic some of the hypomania. In my head I was saying, if I could just think of how to do one or two of these things like I used to do and just hack my brain and weaponize my wiring and try to figure out how to do one or two of those things, I can get back to normal.

That’s basically how it happened. I structured a couple of them. I systematized them and I took them into one turnaround and turned around a business. Then at the next turnaround, I structured a couple others and systematized a couple others. By the time I got to the third turnaround, it was like, “Oh man, I forgot to do that one thing from the first turnaround.” Thirteen months in, I’m going, why didn’t I remember that? That’s when I decided it was time to write them all down and really come up with this toolbox of systems that I had put in place and to make sure that I hit all of them during the turnaround. I had been teaching people these — my lieutenants, my second-in-commands — and so I knew that you didn’t have to be bipolar to do it.

Then during the fourth turnaround, I had it all set up. I had them in line and I knocked them right out. Boom, boom, boom, boom. Just got a really rapid, really hard turnaround. At that point I was like, okay, I’m going to decide to actually come out, let people know what I’ve been dealing with for the last 8 years with medicated bipolar, and show people that there’s value in divergent thinking. It’s not something to be feared, it’s something to be valued, because if we all read the same 20 books, we’re all going to get the same exact results.

So what this book and this method is about is really breakthrough results using differentiated thinking. That could be neurodivergent thinking like myself, or it could just be differentiated thinking. But it’s trying to teach people to value that in the workplace. Bipolar is not something to be medicated away, and neither are other neurodivergences. It’s something to be learned from and taken advantage of and weaponized, for lack of a better word, in order to drive better results rather than just being medicated away.

Sana: Well, yeah. This is logical. I think also it’s very practical. The word “weaponized” may look like it means something else, but I think sometimes we do need that. One question that comes to my mind, Todd — when you realized that some of the hypomanic states that actually made you successful, because you just got into the promotion, so you thought that if I don’t show that energy or that productivity, I may not live up to the standards of what I’ve been promoted for. Did you feel like when you thought of mimicking that, is this some kind of mask that I have to put on to make sure that people don’t realize something is different with me?

Todd: You definitely have to think about it. But what I’ll tell you is that a lot of folks who have bipolar miss that hypomania when they’re on the medicine. They feel like they get some real hard goal that’s in front of them, and it’s why a lot of people hop off the medicine and stop taking it — because they lose the hypomania. In the old days they could have done this, but now they can’t. So the mimicking was extremely important.

The hardest part about actually having these results with the medicine was the fact that I was now sleeping 5 hours a day instead of two. So I had 3 hours less to do it. But what I found is that I had been self-medicating. Obviously I’d been drinking. I had been doing other things to try and get my mind right and slow myself down and be able to relax at least a little bit. As I stopped that, as I got sober and got out of the self-medication, I found that I could be just as productive in fewer hours.

As far as mimicking and wondering if people noticed, I don’t think that crossed my mind and it still doesn’t today. I went eight years doing it without people realizing. The idea there is you’re systematizing things. You’re teaching yourself how to do innovation differently. You’re teaching yourself how to do goal setting and continuous improvement and radical focus differently. It all seems and is very natural. That’s why I’ve been able to teach people those methods without them actually having bipolar or even knowing that they were bipolar-inspired. It’s just a different worldview of how to tackle problems, if that makes sense.

Sana: It absolutely does. And what I also realize is that the real unfair advantage is not the hypomanic high. It is learning how to build systems that give you a similar level of output without needing to be on fire all the time.

Todd: Definitely, 100%. One of the key methods in the book that we talk about is the Karelin Method, and it’s an interesting one that touches right on what you just said. Most folks believe that there’s two ways to drive further results. It’s activity times efficiency equals results. So I can either work a bunch more hours or I can get way better at my job. If I do either of those things, the equation says I’m going to get more out of it. And if I do 20% more of each than my competition, then I’m probably going to be 1.2 times 1.2 — I’ll be 44% more productive than my competition if I work 20% more hours and I’m 20% better at my job. That is all true. You can just flat out work hard. You can get better at your job or start to automate, systematize, use AI, outsource, or reduce. Those are all the things that you can do to get better at your job and more efficient.

But then the third part that most people don’t focus on is the focus part. This is an example of putting a system in place where anybody can think about this instead of somebody who has bipolar. You take a look at your calendar and you 80/20 it. You basically try to figure out the four or five things that you’re going to do out of the hundred that week that drive the most value, and then you build your entire calendar around those things.

For example, if you’re going to do 100 things in a week, you might only spend a half hour to two or three hours on each of them. But if I say I’m going to do the 80/20 squared method — which is 4% of activities drive 64% of the results — and I’m going to take the other 36% and let the team do it, or outsource it, or eliminate them, and I’m going to spend my 40 or 50 hours a week on just those four or five things, now all of a sudden I’m spending 8 to 12 hours on each of the most important things instead of a half hour to three hours. I am going to be several hundred percent more productive than the people I’m going up against if I do that.

I always say your calendar doesn’t lie. Your calendar will tell you what your priorities are. So if you’re in meetings about meetings and updates about updates and planning for planning meetings, that is what your priority is. You are going to be less productive than me, who is going to spend every waking moment making as much money as I can every minute of the day, which is the profit per minute methodology that we use. That’s an example of how I was thinking when I was unmedicated, but then you just had to package it up into a system that is real easy to teach and real easy to execute once you start thinking about it every day, rather than just having it be part of your illness that happens to make you think that way.

Sana: Yeah, that is actually — the question here for anyone who is listening and is still addicted to their old version of this beast mode: the question is not how do I get back that spark within me, but what is the actual cost of that spark or that edge. You mentioned Grandiose Goal Setting — big moonshot targets, aggressive growth. But from a practical operator perspective, how do you keep these goals from just becoming fantasy PowerPoints that demoralize the team?

Todd: Great question. What I always say is underpromising and overdelivering is for losers. But it’s what everyone’s taught. That’s the way to get ahead in business. But what I can tell you is that if I have two employees, one promises six and they get eight, and one promises 22 and they get 19, the guy who gets 19 gets promoted every single time. It happens over and over and over again. It’s not about missing your goal every time. It’s about setting a big goal and finding a way to get there or come close to it, because that’s who is going to win in the organization.

Now, how does that translate? How do you get yourself out of trouble and not get yourself into trouble over and over again? First of all, you set big long-term goals. You’re not necessarily saying, “I’m going to grow 22% next year.” You’re saying, “I’m going to grow 50 to 60% over the next 2 to 3 years.” And then you set smaller goals on the way there that you can get your employees excited about, that you can show progress on, that you can hit milestones. We use a nine-box of goals where we go organic growth, profit margin optimization, and innovation. Then we go one year, three year, and five year.

If you can imagine this grid in your head, you’ve got these three types of goals, then you have one year, three year, and five year. So you have nine boxes and you put what you want to do inside of organic growth in the one-year and the three-year and the five-year option. You end up with these nine boxes of different goals. Then we put in place what we call a raise-your-hand rule. This comes to your question — how do you keep everyone engaged? How do you keep them pumped up about the long-term goal? Basically you say, if you are ever not working on one of these nine things, you have permission to raise your hand and demand an answer why.

What that means is sometimes the answer is going to be, “Hey, there’s just some things we’ve got to get done and they’re not going to directly align to these nine goals.” But most of the time we can attach what they’re doing to one of these nine goals so that they can in their head realize that what they’re doing is important to the organization, important to the long-term growth. The nice part is these goals rarely change if you do it right. You can reinforce them every town hall. You can talk about how the goals are not changing — the methods and the things you’re focusing on may, but they’re inside of this nine-box. It allows you to pinpoint small victories that you can nail on your way to this really large vision that only happens if we get these nine done. That has been extremely effective at three or four different organizations now in increasing accountability, increasing people’s worth.

Here’s the thing — people don’t complain about having to work an extra half hour a day. They don’t care that they got home a half hour later. What they care about is that they spent two hours in wasted meetings that day and then got home a half hour later. That’s what makes them mad. So this is all about maximizing that profit per minute. Some people are like, “Oh, I don’t want to talk about how much money we’re making at work.” But the bottom line is if they feel like they’re delivering the business, they’re going to feel better about their job and they’re going to be willing to work that extra half hour when they need to. But if you actually focus on profit per minute, they’re not going to have to that often because you’re going to cut out the waste.

Sana: Yeah, 100%, it makes sense. Even I also wouldn’t mind giving an extra half an hour or one hour because I know that what I’ve been doing actually contributed to something — whether it’s in profits or the numbers or the big goal, the vision that my company has set. Todd, in the beginning of the conversation you mentioned that after 8 years you shared — you were the high performer with the secret in the background. Arrests, drinking, suicidal ideation, all happening while you delivered big numbers. What exactly made you — what was that exact moment you decided that I’m going to come out publicly as a bipolar business leader and risk the stigma?

Todd: A couple things. The main thing was I felt like I had something to teach people. I felt like I had taught different people these strategies over the years, and everybody I had taught them to was like, “Wow, I’ve never thought of it that way,” or, “Wow, this is not that hard. Why haven’t I done business this way forever?” So it felt like — I’m passionate around turnarounds. I love turnaround management. There’s certain ways to do a turnaround that are way more effective, and this operational system does that. So I was excited about teaching people how to do business turnarounds, especially now that transformation has to happen so often.

Then from a neurodivergent standpoint, it’s just that I was watching all these people, and when they come out as LGBTQ or they talk about their diversity, people celebrate them. That was not how neurodivergence is handled in the workplace. People would say things like, “Oh, he had that thing that one time,” and everyone would smile and nod and know what they’re talking about and then never promote that person — because of some breakdown or something that had happened in the past.

What I realized is that it was only coming up in a negative context. There are so many positives about neurodivergence, whether it’s hyperfocus or pattern recognition or setting big goals and outside-the-box thinking — all these different things that multiple neurodivergencies have, not just bipolar, that really need to be celebrated. When I came out as bipolar, the very first thing that even my closest friends did was, “What can we do to fix you?” And my message was, you don’t need to fix this. You need to take advantage of this. You need to weaponize this. You need to learn from this.

One of the best things that we can do if you have neurodivergence or if you think differently is to not blame things on that. You don’t want bipolar to only come up when you’re making an excuse or when you’re blaming it on something. What you want is to be talking about the good parts, talking about the value that you bring because of your neurodivergent thinking. And then that’s the light that people put it in. So that was the real reason where I said, it’s worth the career risk. I’m going to come out and start talking about this and make sure that everyone’s realizing that there’s a lot of value in this neurodivergent thinking that can really drive breakthrough results.

Sana: Exactly. Superpower. And I think because on BisBlend it’s not only conversations and discussions around business, but we also continue to blend different aspects of a person’s journey. For anyone listening who sits at this intersection of mental health and ambition, this is the real trade — we might lose some shallow opportunities, but then we also gain a career that matches our actual nervous system, not just what is written on the paper or in our LinkedIn bio. I think it’s a whole different level of ROI.

Todd: Yeah, 100%. I think this is a fantastic conversation. This is exactly why I wrote the book, so I could have discussions like this. We’re really having a lot of great discussions. People are understanding it and people are implementing it.

Sana: Absolutely. So before we wrap up, Todd, if listeners can get a hold of your book, connect with you, share their thoughts about this conversation — what would be the best way to connect?

Todd: Sure. So The Unfair Advantage: Weaponizing the Hypomanic Toolbox is pre-ordered just about everywhere, but definitely Amazon, Barnes & Noble. Then you can reach me at toddhagopian.com. I don’t sell consulting. Basically I have tons and tons of free data out there on business transformation strategies and everything that’s in the HOT System. If you have questions, just reach out, hit the contact button, and ask me a question. I love talking about this stuff, and it’s all free. So we’ll just have some great discussions, do some case studies, and have a chat.

Sana: Listeners, there you go. You heard from Todd. I’m going to have all these links in the show notes. Just go to them along with this episode on your favorite podcast platform. Reach out to Todd, connect with him, get a hold of his book. What I am taking from this conversation, listeners, is simple but not easy — because your wiring is not a bug in the system. It is a design constraint. You can either pretend it does not exist and keep crashing bigger and faster, or you can build an entire new operating model around it and let it become an advantage for you.

Todd, thank you so much for being straightforward, bold, candid. It’s really an empowering conversation. Thank you so much for this.

Todd: Well, thank you for having me. This was a fantastic conversation. I appreciate you.

Sana: Thank you so much, Todd. And listeners, once again, go and check out Todd’s playbook, The Unfair Advantage: Weaponizing the Hypomanic Toolbox. It is available out there for pre-order on Amazon. And also, if this episode hit close to home, share it with one person who needs to hear that their brain is not broken, nothing to fix in there — it is just unoptimized. This is BisBlend with Sana, where we keep it real about business, brains, and the cost of chasing big outcomes. I’ll see you in the next episode. Thank you.